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Poster: JustAnotherDH Date: Dec 12, 2010 9:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

I made a quick check on the Forum and haven't seen any mention of WikiLeaks. Beyond the question of what people here think about the whole topic, there is the very interesting fact that John Perry Barlow, lyricist for many of Bob Weir's songs, and the Electronic Frontier Foundation that he is associated with, have come out very strongly in favor of WikiLeaks and against attempts by the government to suppress them.

Here's an ABC story link, and googling "John Perry Barlow" and "WikiLeaks" will bring up others:

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2010/12/09/3089103.htm

Support WikiLeaks has asked for, and well within our abilities, is to "Like" their page on Facebook.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 12, 2010 10:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

thanks for the link. still not sure what I think about wikileaks ...

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 12, 2010 4:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

Fuck John Barlow. He's a fucking imbecile for supporting these Wikileak turds. The released documents are full of unsubstantiated speculations, rumors, innuendo and half-truths, the spread of which in some instances only serves to poison waters that were murky enough to begin with. Regardless of the wooly-headed discussions taking place in the insulated classrooms of our universities, grownups understand that confidentiality is essential to real-world diplomacy, and undermining it helps no one.

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Poster: yokosduo Date: Dec 12, 2010 6:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

Tread lightly on our good friend Barlow, his raison d'etre at EFF has always been "Freedom of Speech". His statement was "i wish i could support that", if you read the footnote, he misspoke in his interview with ABC.

When one considers the life-long contributions of good American folks such as Barlow, his bud, JFK Jr. and his living Bro, RFK Jr. it's humbling to think how much more most of us could have given of our existence on this planet.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 13, 2010 8:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

"When one considers the life-long contributions of good American folks such as Barlow, his bud, JFK Jr. and his living Bro, RFK Jr. it's humbling to think how much more most of us could have given of our existence on this planet."

Hmmm...well, I definitely feel humbled when looking at the life long contributions of some people, but I can't say John Barlow is one of them.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Dec 13, 2010 8:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

Hi Rob, its been a while.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 13, 2010 4:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

There is a difference between asserting that prosecuting wikileaks is a bad idea in terms of free speech, and saying that everything wikileaks has done is good. (I agree with the former and have no informed opinion about the latter, but I doubt it.)

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Dec 12, 2010 8:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

The reality is that many double agents through the auspice of the State Department , most likely have been executed or worse since the release of those documents . (Probably their families too.) Do you think a freedom loving Iranian mid-level official is going to put it all on the line and turn towards us now ? Russia and China have gained free access to years of direct intell ; not only how individual crisis were handled , but patterns over years with multiple cases . Aces back to back , baby . They are still having parties at the GRU and the various tentacles that compose the various Chinese intelligence agencies .

Really now , a buck PCF in Afghanistan dl 250K top secret docs and was allowed too ?
How many fingers am I holding up ?

I do appreciate 'links prankster nature and the goal of transparency in institutions , but its current nature is akin to the cobra out of the charmers control . It can get people killed .

Here is Anonymous ,

http://www.4chan.org/

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Dec 12, 2010 10:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

Why should we support Wikileaks? Because John Perry Barlow supports it? Or because it puts American service men and women in danger?

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Poster: Incornsyucopia Date: Dec 12, 2010 12:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

I'm not sure how much Wikileaks has actually put American soldiers in greater danger (defense secretary Robert Gates doesn't seem to think it'll ultimately do much harm), but my concern with what they've done stems from what I think is a profound ignorance as to the reality of international diplomacy. I in general support the push for more transparency from governments, but to imagine that in a world in which authoritarian governments like Russia, China, Iran, N. Korea exist, that in democratic countries there should be no secrets relating to the practices of diplomacy is profoundly naive. Authoritarian governments, for obvious reasons, are, and will be, much better able to keep such secrets than democracies, which means that if Wikileaks keeps up their practice of releasing such info then the former will have an obvious advantage in the diplomatic arena over the latter. How that would be a good thing I really cannot understand.

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Poster: hasher Date: Dec 12, 2010 6:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

From what I've read WikiLeaks isn't discriminating between democratic and communist governments. They have leaked info from the Russian government as well as other countries, not just the U.S.. There's a list out there of all the leaks and what is revealed in them and I think before people rush to judgement they should do a little research.

We the people as citizens have a right to know what our government, that is supposedly working for us, is doing not only in terms foreign policy but with domestic affairs as well. It's the idea that information is dangerous that allows the government to justify its ever growing constraints on our rights and freedoms (patriot act). Information doesn't kill people, people kill people.

Think of WikiLeaks as just like the Watergate tapes. Although it didn't change much in politics, it at least woke people up tp the idea that these politicians (even the president) are not as wholesome as we'd like to think.

When politicians' words don't match their actions, you have to ask what their motives truly are. The more information we have the the more equipped we will be to combat the greed and corruption that plague the governments of our world. Information is valueable, it is power, and its time we took the power back.

Peace.


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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Dec 12, 2010 8:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

Sorry, but Wikileaks is nothing like the Watergate tapes. The Watergate tapes -- or the Pentagon papers for that matter -- were evidence of crimes. Watergate needs no explanation, but the PP showed conclusively that the Pentagon and White House knew that Vietnam was unwinnable, but kept fighting anyway. Those were cases where there was a clear public interest in the release of classified information.

Wikileaks does nothing of the sort. They have shown that war is hell with the war logs, and they have certainly uncovered some disturbing things about US foreign policy. And I applaud the fact that they have uncovered evidence about our secret war in Yemen, and about Shell's incredibly imperial behavior in Nigeria. The latter is particularly despicable, and should be made public.

But they have also been rather non-discriminating in their release of material-- particularly with the war logs -- and that is very unsettling. There needs to be a channel for resonsible leaks, but I'm pretty sure WikiLeaks ain't it. Diplomacy requires confidentiality in some cases. To think otherwise is just naive. And I fear that the lives of many good people will be put at risk when it is revealed that they've talked to the US.

I also worry that it will ultimately be a major setback for government transparency. Perhaps they'll see it as a wake-up call and reform the secrecy system, but more likely is a clamp down on openness and even more over-classification. The future looks grim to me.

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Poster: Sedula Date: Dec 13, 2010 11:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

What about all the Afghanis who helped the US? Many of their names were released in the Wikileaks material. Now theses people will most likely get killed buy the Taliban for helping the US out. Do you think that is OK?

Do you think it is OK now that probably no one will ever help our soldiers out again because of Wikileaks? Even if you don't agree with the wars our serviceman have no choice but to go & serve in them. All this info will hurt them in one way or another. How is that good?

Finally, who cares what John Barlow thinks. Most artists have no clue about the politics of which they speak. Look at Bono & Global warming. The 360 tour for U2 will be the biggest tour of all time. Even though as a scientist I don't believe the data support the warming,Bono is a hypocrite of the first order. telling you and I to ride bikes while he flies jets all over the world.

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Poster: jackstraw86 Date: Dec 12, 2010 12:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

Tough subject. But I ask myself (and you?) this: If they keep posting governments' secrets, said governments will just not have put ANYTHING in writing, thus making them even more secretive. I think that ultimately, Wikileak's actions will have the opposite affect of what they claim to be trying to do, get governments to be more transparent about how they set policy.

"If you don't want your memos to get you in trouble someday, just don't write any". -Dick Cheney. That's why there's no documents discussing the backroom dealings that led to the Iraq war.

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Poster: JustAnotherDH Date: Dec 13, 2010 12:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

I think the future does look grim, and if the unintended consequences of WikiLeaks is to accelerate the arrival of that grim future by a few years, that's all it does, we just screwed a little quicker. On the other hand it might serve as wake up call to a future increasingly dependent on an internet and interconnectedness owned and controlled by corporations and their allies in government.

To me the biggest news to come out of WikiLeaks is the extent to which the government is willing to use fear and intimidation to get corporations to do a China / Iran - style internet shutdown on us. I think it's shown us something about internet freedom that we all need to think deeply about. I am glad that JPB, a guy who I suspect knows a lot more about a lot more things than I do (most entirely non-relevant to this particular issue!), is on the case.

Have a grate day!

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 13, 2010 4:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

It seems to me like the government is figuring out about the internet what the ordinary citizen is just figuring out about facebook - that if you let it all hang out online, other people can read it.

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Poster: yokosduo Date: Dec 13, 2010 1:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

If you wrote your own Biography, what exactly would you say? We all make mistakes in this life, this is fundamental to personal growth and the evolution of our ideology.

From 1971 until 1995, Barlow wrote lyrics for the Grateful Dead, mostly through his relationship with Bob Weir. Among others, Barlow's songs include "Cassidy", "Estimated Prophet", "Black-Throated Wind", "Hell in a Bucket", "Mexicali Blues", "The Music Never Stopped", and "Throwing Stones".

In 1986, Barlow joined The WELL online community, then known for a strong Deadhead presence. He served on the company's board of directors for several years. In 1990, Barlow founded the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) along with fellow digital-rights activists John Gilmore and Mitch Kapor. As a founder of EFF, Barlow helped publicize the Secret Service raid on Steve Jackson Games. Barlow's involvement is later documented in the non-fiction book The Hacker Crackdown: Law and Disorder on the Electronic Frontier (1992) by Bruce Sterling. EFF later sponsored the ground-breaking case Steve Jackson Games, Inc. v. United States Secret Service. Steve Jackson Games won the case in 1993.

Barlow currently serves as vice-chairman of the EFF's board of directors. The EFF was designed to mediate the "inevitable conflicts that have begun to occur on the border between Cyberspace and the physical world." They were trying to build a legal wall that would separate and protect the Internet from territorial government, and especially from the U.S. government.

He is a Fellow with the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard Law School and Diamond Management & Technology Consultants, and a member of the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences. He spends much of his time on the road, lecturing and consulting.

Barlow also serves on the advisory boards of Clear Path International, TTI/Vanguard and the global company Touch Light Media founded by Anita Ondine.

He is listed as a Managing Partner at Algae Systems of Nevada, a company dedicated to commercializing a novel method for growing microalgae offshore as a biofuel feedstock. He is listed as a member of the faculty of the European Graduate School (EGS), in Saas-Fee, Wallis, Switzerland.

His writings include "A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace", which was written in response to the enactment of the Communications Decency Act in 1996 as the EFF saw the law as a threat to the independency and sovereignty of cyberspace. He argued that the cyberspace legal order would reflect ethical deliberation instead of the coercive power that characterized real-space governance. Therefore, they found it inappropriate to obtain order in the cyberspace by physical coercion. Instead ethics, enlightened self-interest and the commonwealth were the elements they believed to create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace. Later, articles such as "The Economy of Ideas" were also widely circulated in providing a vision for human creativity online.

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Poster: serious the dog Date: Dec 14, 2010 12:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: John Perry Barlow and WikiLeaks

A couple of points, which I'll preface with by saying I mean no personal slight towards anyone taking the time to engage in the discussion here. First, I'm really dismayed by the level of discourse displayed in some quarters here: "Fuck John Barlow", "Wikileak Turds" - is that kind of invective necessary to the debate, honestly? "Fucking Imbecile" - really? Just for not sharing your point of view? Barlow's done a lot of good work, as yokosduo's bio makes clear and he's entitled to an informed opinion...emphasis on "informed" - just like anyone else. Myself, I can appreciate the need for confidentiality, but am highly suspicious of secrecy on my government's part...I'll read what I can and form my own opinion on the Wikileaks issue...and as a "grownup" who came of age during the Nixon years, I know a smear campaign when I see one, which is why I remain skeptical of the villification of Mr. Assange, who, after all, represents a team of like-minded individuals. The only other thing I'd like to observe is the sheer irony of someone asking "Who cares what John Barlow thinks?" - John being one of the most vocal opponents to his bandmates' decision to pull all the GD soundboards from our beloved LMA!